在加拿大经历了近3年的居家监禁生活后，华为首席财务官孟晚舟日前已经安全返回中国。孟和美国相关法院达成缓起诉协议，美国也撤回对她的引渡申请。对此，CGTN主持人田薇独家专访了著名畅销书《美国陷阱》的作者、前法国阿尔斯通集团市场和销售总监弗雷德里克•皮耶鲁奇（Frédéric Pierucci）。皮耶鲁奇是全球知名的“吹哨人”，专门揭露美国的“长臂管辖”问题。因为他早年就亲身经历了美国政府利用“长臂管辖”、《反海外腐败法》等司法武器，拿公权力和国家暴力，打击美国企业商业竞争对手。皮耶鲁奇说：此次中国以国家意志对抗美国“长臂管辖”，为世界立下了标杆。他认为，其它国家虽然现在不说，但是心里一定印象深刻。未来面对美国的“长臂管辖”，要像中国一样据理力争，才有出路。田薇：华为创始人任正非的长女孟晚舟，平安回到中国。听到这个消息，您做何感想？Tian Wei: What do you make of the latest development with Ms Meng Wanzhou, the eldest daughter of Ren Zhengfei, founder of Huawei?
弗雷德里克•皮耶鲁奇: 在很长一段时间里，她一定曾经饱受煎熬，显然，这对所有人来说都是一个非常积极的结果。这件事表明，如果一国政府愿意为之付出不懈努力，能够很大程度上推动此类事件的解决。在我看来，这标志着中国的一个巨大胜利，因为这确实是第一次以一个国家的意志，成功回击了美国的这种长臂管辖。Frederic Pierucci: I think this is the end of a very longer period for her, which should have been very stressed. So obviously, this is a very positive outcome for everybody. And it shows that when the State is taking this thing into its own hands, you know, it can help a lot in both kinds of cases. So for me, I see this is a very huge win for China, because it's really the first time, but the country stand up to the long-arm jurisdiction of the United States in such a way.
田薇：弗雷德，孟女士没有认罪，但她却签署了一份延期起诉协议。在你看来，这意味着什么呢？Tian Wei: Fred, she did not plead guilty, but she did use a DPA (Deferred Prosecution Agreement). What does that mean?
弗雷德里克•皮耶鲁奇：这意味着面对各种指控，她并没有认罪。她只是承认了美国对这个案件的事实陈述，但没有认罪。据我了解 这种延期起诉协议通常适用于公司，而非适用于个人。个人与司法部签订延期起诉协议是非常少见的事情。事实上，在所有所谓《反海外腐败法》案件中，我从未见过这样的先例。这表明谈判过程非常艰难，而且美国司法部在达成这种协议时肯定做了不少让步。总之，这意味着她没认罪，也不会被认定为有罪。这意味着，只要她遵守延期起诉协议的条款，美国将在一年后，也就是2022年12月，撤销对她的起诉。Frederic Pierucci: It means that she didn't plead guilty of the counts that she was prosecuted for. So she admitted to a statement of facts. But she did not plead guilty. So this kind of agreement, deferred prosecution agreement, usually it's reserved for corporations, not for individuals. It's very, very unique that an individual can enter into a deferred prosecution agreement with the Department of Justice. In fact, for instance, in all Foreign Corrupt Practice Act cases, I have never seen such a thing. It shows that the negotiation has been very, very tough, and that the department of justice has really bent a lot to accommodate this kind of agreement. So basically, it means that she has not pled guilty. So she's not recognized as guilty. And it means that if she abides to the term of the deferred prosecution agreement, the United States are going to cancel the indictment against her in one year from now, in December of 2022.
田薇：弗雷德，这当然非同寻常。但我了解到，从美方毫无根据地逮捕你的那天起，到你离开监狱的那天，你也经受过不少煎熬。能否谈谈当时你的处境？是什么最终导致你做出了后来的决定（所谓认罪）？Tian Wei: And that makes a huge difference of course, Fred. But I know that you were struggling so much throughout the process from the day when they tried to catch you with unfounded circumstances to the day that you left the prison. Tell me more about how you struggled and what eventually led you to make the decision that you did.
弗雷德里克•皮耶鲁奇：我没有孟女士那么幸运，我的公司并没有向我提供那么强大的支持，我的祖国也没有给我提供强大的支持。因此，在几个月的监禁后，我真的感到非常孤独。如果我想避免在美国的监狱中度过接下来的15年，那么我就必须做出后来的选择。因此，我的情况与她有着很大的差异。我从孟晚舟事件中观察到，整个华为公司从头到尾都在支持她。同时在外交领域，中国可能也为达成这项协议付出了很大的努力。你还要明白，我的案件发生在2013到2014年。当时世界各国对美国的长臂管辖还缺乏了解。在阿尔斯通案之前，其实已经发生过一些类似的案件，但大多数人都没有注意到。直到阿尔斯通案发生后，法国才修改“反腐败法”来保护法国公司。Frederic Pierucci: I didn't have the chance to have my company’s support like she had, and I didn't have a chance to have my country’s support like she had. So after a few months of incarceration, I realized that I was really alone and that if I wanted to avoid spending the last 15 years in prison in the United States, I had to do the choices that I made. So this is a huge difference. What I have seen in the Huawei case is that the whole company was behind her from beginning to the end. And also diplomatically, China probably did a lot of things to come to this kind of agreement. What you have to remember is that my case occurred in 2013 and 2014. At that time, the world was not so aware of the long-arm jurisdiction of the United States. There have been a few cases before the Alstom case, but those cases were unnoticed by most of the people. Even in France, we had to wait until the Alstom case in order to change the French anti-corruption law to protect French company, and so on.
田薇：我记得孟女士得知自己可以回国后，谈到过去近两年半的时间里她遇到了重重难题，但她也谈到即使是乌云边上也可以有银线。以我对于你话语的理解，你似乎也得出了类似的结论。Tian Wei: I remember Ms Meng after she knew she could go back to China, she talked about the past almost two and half years as absolutely disruptive moment of her life, but she also talked about every cloud has its own silver lining. If I understand what you just said, it seems that you are reaching similar conclusions.
弗雷德里克•皮耶鲁奇：是的，我认为她一直在坚持不懈地抗争，而这需要非凡的勇气。昨天（孟晚舟女士回国）发生的事情确实令人振奋。所以我认为她选择不放弃是正确之举。回顾过去两年半的时间，她本人、她的家人、她的父亲，以及所有人都必定会百感交集。也许到头来，没有任何一个欧洲国家会说出来，但每个人内心深处都应该为这个结局感到欣慰。因为这确实是第一次有国家正面回击美国疯狂的长臂管辖。事实上，这件事将使许多其他国家受益，前提是他们有勇气做同样的抗争，起身反抗美国的做法。对于未来，让我们一起拭目以待，这起事件将有望成为历史性转折点。反观今日，这并不意味着一切都会好起来，因为我认为美国不会停止将法律用作经济武器。虽说如此，至少现在我们看到，那种做法会遭到坚决的回击。Frederic Pierucci: Yeah, I think she was amazingly courageous also to continue to fight back. And yesterday's result is really amazing. So I think she did the right thing not to give up. Those 2.5 years have been also very, very complicated for her, for her family, for her father, for everybody. At the end of the day, no European country will say this, but everybody deep down should feel grateful to what is happening here, because it's really one of the first time that a country is really standing up to the United States to stop this craziness of long-arm jurisdiction. In fact, this will benefit a lot of other countries providing they have the courage to do the same thing, stand up and fight back. Let's see what happened, but this is probably going to hopefully going to be a turning point. Now, it doesn't mean that everything would be easier now, because I think the United States will not stop choosing their law as an economic weapon, but at least now we see they could get some response to this.
